SPEAKER_03 0:00

And welcome, welcome everyone. You're listening to iTalk 1067 FM, the voice of the Mountain Amir host Janine Ford. So glad you're rolling with us this afternoon. You know, uh we are now, I just want to mention too, throw this out there, we are officially in stage two fire restrictions today. So just remember that one. So we've moved up a grade, stage two fire restrictions warning for everybody. I am very pleased to have White Mountain Association of Realtors, Realtors here with us today to talk about some of the challenges facing the White Mountains right now. And really it's kind of a thing that's been all over our state a little bit with these renewables, and we're talking about the wind turbines and the solar fields and all those things descending on us. And I have I have Brenda uh Siminski, she is the president of White Mountain Association of Realtors. I have Jack Greason, Government Affairs, and then also Brian Anderson, he's the president-elect. Welcome guys, how are you doing this afternoon?

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Good morning. We're doing great, Janine. Thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_03 1:02

Very good, very good. Well, we're thrilled to have you. I want to start off with just to ask you guys what your biggest concerns are right now for the White Mountains, with, you know, because it seems like a ton of people want to move up here, and then now they're kind of hearing about these wind turbines or they're not. And um, you know, are we disclosing that? What what's going on with it? And do we know where is safe if you don't want to live under these, you know? But I just wanted to ask your concerns. Why don't we start with you, Brenda?

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Well, our concern is is getting all the facts. You know, as the association president, I uh we do represent as an association our real estate professionals that live and work in this area. So we also, you know, serve the buyers, sellers, property owners, ranchers, small business owners, and the and the great people of the White Mountain area. And our biggest concern is not just going with the hearsay, but doing our due diligence and trying to bring in all the facts so that we can share that with the people that we represent. And it's been a couple of years since this has um come to light, at least I live in Apache County, and the people have been bringing this information to us for the last couple of years, and now it's coming kind of to a head, and more and more people are learning, and it is our goal to work together to bring facts together so that we can properly get the information out so that people can make a decision as to what they want to do. We are hearing people that are looking in the area and they're concerned, and uh they're they're trying to decide what really will be coming, and is that where they want to live? Right. That's concerning.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

Yeah, and see what you're bringing up, I've been begging, I mean, messaging the Board of Supervisors, just begging them, just say, guys, just give us a map. Give us a map. Is there a place we'll be safe away from them? Or because when they didn't w for two years they've been begging for setbacks, and then they came up with 720 feet or something from your doorstep, they actually moved them in closer. Um and so then that's where I was like, whoa, we did not get the ordinance stuff we were begging for. But um just to beg them to say, I think you need full disclosure, I think you need to let people know where the possibilities are or where we're safe to buy, right? And and if people, if you want to give people a decision of do they want to sell, should I sell quickly and get out of here, you know, at least be transparent. And um we looked at other counties where they had minimal ordinance changes, at least a half mile setback and they're not being sued like coaches. And um that's where this uh community, you know, these ordinance things came up, the little thing that they're trying to run now. But it at every turn i I just beg, I'm just like, just be transparent, give us a map. And I just it's just dead dead air, you know, and I invite them on all the time, and there's just nothing. So that's the scary part for me, you know, as a property owner too, up here, right? Okay, Jack, um, Greason uh government affairs, what are your biggest concerns?

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Yeah, thanks for having us on this morning. Um, you know, looking at these projects and looking at the bigger dialogue that we're trying to have in your area of the state, you know, the thing that I'm most concerned with is the the lack of I think transparency and local government regarding what this is gonna wind up meaning for a community. Uh I also have concerns regarding with the speed at which uh your legislative bodies are rushing to try and get these approved. And there are there are good reasons why they're trying to do it, but unfortunately it it's it's hard to justify considering the community-wide impacts that these projects are gonna wind up having. Uh you know, when you look at the size and scale of these projects, they're going to be some of the largest or the largest projects in the state of Arizona and probably the largest projects nationally here in the continental U.S. And for perspective for your listeners, when you think about this, these projects will be visible for somewhere in a range of 25 to 45 miles away. So you may not you may not be living at the base of it, but when you talk about a project that's going to produce, you know, 1150 megawatts, that's looking at something like 70,000 acres of usable land. That's an estimate, by the way. Um, and you'll be able to see them from far, far, far away. And so uh this isn't just going to affect the communities of Vernon and Springerville. You know, you're talking about impacts, you know, uh across the region there. And, you know, municipal leaders have a responsibility to tell their constituents uh you know what this means, what the implications are, uh, and more importantly, why the rush. Uh I think that's an honest conversation that they need to have. And we would be remiss if we didn't actually understand that you know there are other layers of pressure here, not just from uh, you know, county supervisors, but you know, from the state government as well. You know, Governor Hobbes is obviously pushing for the construction of these projects. And there is an intersection into conversations around data centers and other things right now. And so uh as communities, as selected leaders, they have a responsibility to you know carry the dialogue in a community to say this is the contribution we're gonna wind up making. Uh and the community gets should, you know, in my opinion, have uh the opportunity to assess whether or not they want to be a participant in that. And uh, you know, by the best that I can tell, um, they are not having that honest dialogue with the community. And I think we're starting to see that not just in uh the WMAR membership, but also in you know the constituent feedback that we're getting from the region up there.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

Right. And that and that's the that's the biggest thing is the lack of transparency. And also, you know, it I mean, this sounds bad, but it's like uh Governor Hobbes and the State Lands gal, you know, uh our boards of supervisors are riding with them, you know, and we're seeing these state lands and their big push is that how well we can't tell people what to do on their own private land. Well, in Mesa, Arizona, my property I have in Mesa, I can't put a six-story building up. It's called planning and zoning, you know, being a good neighbor, just at least letting us know. And you have this some rules and regulations, but they're putting nothing in for the little guys, you know. It's I think, and what you're saying too, I think it could be bigger than all of us realize. I mean, you're talking big energy, you're talking big politicians, the ninety-eight billion that was slammed in in the last 15 minutes into the big beautiful bill by some sellouts, the one senator from Utah. There's and and almost all of that ninety-eight billion is for Northern Arizona. So a lot of us have to look and read between the lines. Oh wow, we might have just been sold out here, but just tell us, tell us what's going on, you know? Uh but they're afraid to, you know, open that can of worms and tell us, I think. Brian, what are your thoughts on this?

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Well, I think um all three of you, Brenda, Jack, and you, Janine, um kind of hit it hit the nail on the head, and that's the transparency from the government entities that are pushing this through. And it really feels like they're just trying to shove it down our throats um without giving us um all of the information and the pertinent facts that are necessary for for our residents, you know, to make their own decisions on this. And and that's what I'm hearing from uh my peers in the real estate community and from you know uh property owners. And uh they they don't know exactly why this is all happening so quickly, most importantly, and then you know how is it going to affect them and their property values? And that's what that's what boils down to us as the realtors in the White Mountains.

SPEAKER_03 8:47

Yeah, and and that's the sad thing is let us know where we stand, what we're doing, and it has to put you guys up against a big wall because you know you're you're trying to take these people around to sell them houses, or uh they're might be calling you and saying, Should I sell my house? You know, and you guys have to have those answers too, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Well, you you we'd like to have those answers, but we don't necessarily have them in in most instances. And um and Janine, you brought up a point, you know, show us the maps. Where are these where are these projects going in exactly? And you know, I haven't seen that. I don't know if Jack has.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

Yeah, and and there's not not the the ones that are already in and are mace mainly in a Navajo, they have that map because they're in. They were, you know, they're through. But the uh but Jack, have you seen some of the other prospective maps?

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Yeah excuse me. Yeah, the maps are available and and you can get a sense of where they're going to go, but the map doesn't necessarily give people a good sense of the size and scale of of what is going to be going in, right? Um you know, you're looking at a topographical map, you're just gonna see you're gonna see some lines, and arguably they're in places that people might assume aren't environmentally sensitive or are at high risk or they're gonna have minimal impact. And the reality is they are in some of the flattest, most highly sensitive areas in your region. Um, and you know, we've got some anecdotal feedback from our colleagues in New Mexico and other places where they started to put these projects in. And again, this is starting to matter to communities, to investors, to, you know, home buyers, you know, particularly people who are trying to relocate to the area, say coming out of the valley from Phoenix and wanting to come up here. It's you know, they want to move in under the largest single solar and wind installation in the continental US. Uh, you know, it it it's hard to really put that into perspective just looking at the topographical map.

SPEAKER_03 10:41

Yeah, and the other thing is that they can't close off those other ones I'm told, like the rest of the state lands that aren't in the map now, they can't close them off because legally I called it our boards of supervisors because Real A Z was over both uh Navajo and Apache, right? So they were roll rolling together, Navajo and Apache. People in Apache are saying, Well, why should I care about Navajo? Oh my gosh, they've all been rolling together, you know, they've been put under the same umbrella. And the but the hard part is that they they look at these these maps, and the reason they can't say, okay, you're all safe here, I've been told, is that the other state lands, all the checkerboarded across, right? The other state lands and the private lands, that's why that other company has sent all these letters to individuals. If they have more than 10, if you have more than 10 acres, we can put a wind turbine on yours and we you will make this much, you know. So we they can't say it's a safe zone because more people may just get engaged and more companies and uh the other danger is with the seven other counties putting in restrictions, the minimal ones that are that our signing thing is going on right now up here, that the people are trying to get the citizens' ordinance, which the county kind of blocked us and said it has to be 15 percent, they made that decision. Uh-huh. And so it's going to be insurmountable, that 7,000 mark. But that those are those minimals that we saw in Coachies County, just a half mile of setback, right? And we can't even get those. So the seven other counties, when I'm told Coachies, some companies moved off, and guess what? They want to head here because they had they've had other kind of counties put in protections for the little people, right? And now more are descending on us. So it's it in the hurry, the hurry part of it that you guys mentioned is because there are some deadlines on those um, you know, on the the the big pots of money. They have to show five percent that they've invested in, they have to show and our counties have made it easier because they said if they've so much as raised their hand or spent anything they're in, right? Uh-huh. In those last ordinance of changes. So it's like they've made it as easy as possible for the renewables. And I don't know how big or who's standing on who's next. You know what I mean? I mean it might be so big for all of us, bigger than all of us, that we can't stop it. But just tell us, just tell us. And there's something that you guys do, it's called a disclosure statement, right? And uh, Jack, maybe you can speak to this. That's what about two years ago I started calling down to the state and state board of realtors, and I said, are you guys putting this in your disclosure statements? Do you know or have you heard of any wind or solar pro you know what I mean? And is that happening anywhere?

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yeah, it's been an ongoing discussion for our board at the moment to try and understand what are the implications of this, right? Um, every real estate agent has to act in the best interest of a buyer and a seller, and they're responsible for disclosing any pertinent fact related to the long-term value of a piece of property that, again, the they're they're working either side of. And so as a result of that, they have to be responsible to potential buyers to say, yes, there are renewable energy projects that are coming in. They may be within your line of sight, um, and there could theoretically be uh financial impacts on those properties. And there's significant data to show that there are and can be uh uh impacts to property values. You know, the interesting stake on this is something that we've said multiple times now, is given the size and scope of these projects, there is no good data out there that says what the actual impacts will wind up being. There's fairly extensive research that has looked at uh various projects across the continental US to say, you know, they do have impacts, some of those impacts can be mitigated through visual buffers and other things like that. But you're talking, you know, a large swath of land here in eastern Arizona that is relatively flat, that has long visual lines of sight. Um and so for realtor members, they keep coming to us and saying, hey, what do we do? Like, you know, this isn't technically part of our disclosure process, but we know it's gonna wind up impacting. So we're advising all of our agents to say, go ahead, disclose what you have available. Uh and you know, right now that can and probably will wind up resulting in, you know, lower amounts of sales. We don't have data yet to say what the impact has been today. Uh, but I fully expect within the next few years if these projects move ahead, we'll start to see a decrease in sales regionally.

SPEAKER_03 15:02

Yeah, and I know that the green, the green sites have admitted it's like an 11% property value drop, right? But when you call back to the locations of the early adapters, and mind you, these are shorter windmills, in Oklahoma and Texas, those uh people out there, those real estate within five miles of those turbine fields, okay, dropped as high as 50%. So now there's more and more coming out, but the green people were squashing that as much as possible, you know.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

And I don't know that we can actually put a percentage on in our area because every area is different. Right. We have people that move here because of our views and our openness. How do you do that? So if if you're gonna start wanting to get percentages and stuff, we do need you know, somebody local that can uh do independent reviews and appraisals of of what do do we see for our local area. And I did, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

And I did ask about that, and unfortunately, assessors and stuff like that locally, they said we don't have any drop, any property drop or value or anything that we've seen any problem of in our area. I go, no, no, no, you you don't need to be looking at our area, you have to look at where the turbines are, you know what I mean? And so that's kind of their go-to, is they're saying we haven't seen any problems. And then the other thing we heard from the one board of supervisors, I don't know if you guys saw the sound bite, but the one thing we heard is they're they're considered a really cool thing. A lot of people like these. It's gonna be like Disneyland. Oh my gosh. I about to do that.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

And so that's where we need to talk to the the people who do valuations of property. We need to talk to appraisers.

SPEAKER_03 16:46

Right. And those appraisers need to be in places where there have been turbines for a while, like Texas and you and Oklahoma. But what we've been going on here, our Board of Supervisors, they said they just considered right here locally. Well, if you go out to Chevron Canyon, where there used to be people that lived there, now it's a little ghost town. They don't live under them anymore. They moved away. Um and so that's the scary part is that we because we don't have research here locally, they're not going to Texas and Oklahoma and other places or even considering like uh where uh especially for ranchers and stuff, especially like in Norway where their reindeer all moved off, now they're illegal and they're shutting all the wind turbines down and they're trying to lure the reindeer back. You know, and it and the saddest part I think in what we learned out at the state legislature when they were trying to put some of this thing through with Dave Marshall, some of the lawmakers were noting that only um twelve percent worldwide are remediated and dug back out. And no one's giving us the answers of the 4,000 tons of rusting rebar steel and junk under each one of these that are going to be left behind. Our Board of Supervisors is allowing them to cover them with two feet of dirt at the in the end. Okay, two feet of dirt. And other counties are making them remediate them ten feet down so we can grow our native grasses and stuff back, right? But they'll never be totally removed. So nobody's giving us the answers on the Coconino aquifer, you know? So it's it's a big, sad, scary situation right now. But now you guys uh did a letter to the Board of Supervisors, and what did that letter say basically?

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Yeah, the letter basically says that we want them to actually, you know, initially stop all activity around these projects, and then basically give the laundry list of of activities that we would like them to pursue uh in the best interest of the community. And I, you know, you've hit a couple, we we've talked about a couple of elements of this, which are you know, primarily doing an economic impact study so that we can say definitively, you know, what are going to be the impacts to real estate, to property. Uh look at um actually understanding what it's going to do to the wildlife in the region, because obviously that is a uh huge tourism driver there in your region. Uh and you know, you don't need to go far or search hard through the corridors of the internet to find information just about, you know, the the flight kill and you know, you've already talked about reindeer moving away and uh and other animal impacts. Uh, but then more importantly, it's like how do you mitigate the actual financial impacts for property owners within the region? You know, I know for people who have properties tested within the area, they're gonna gain financially, but those people will likely end up selling their property and moving away as well. Um seems to be the expectation that we've seen. You brought up Chevron Butt, which is the largest uh project currently in the state of Arizona. We're now talking about a project that would more than double that size, and I don't think a lot of people understand that. Uh, but then also looking at, you know, the benefits to the community, right? There is not going to be, you know, the same predictable tax revenue from these projects due to the incentives to help encourage the to encourage and bring them here from the state. Uh but then further than that, you know, you've got two companies here that are trying to build these projects, one native to the US and one from Spain. Uh, and now, you know, those companies are gonna wind up selling these projects off to, likely selling these projects off to, you know, the local power carriers. And then you brought up a great point. You know, there's 4,000 tons of um uh you know, concrete and rebar that's gonna be left below the ground, and then now that's upon the community to go and deal with, right?

SPEAKER_03 20:24

And so the sickest part of this whole thing, Andy Biggs shared this. Andy Biggs hates these. He thinks it's just absolutely a blight on the land. And he said it's the sickest part is it looks like we will get a mini nuclear within ten years, right? These things stand for time and all eternity. We just need a bridge. And the problem is the the uh mini nuclear sits on five acres of land, probably out, they think, in St. John's, right? It adds 133 jobs, but then these the the do you realize that the ninety-eight billion, they feasibly could build them and never use them, guys. Build them and never use them. That is the sickest part. They can grab the ninety-eight billion. The Spanish company has admitted, told people in the meeting, hey, we're gonna put these up, we'll be here two years, and then whatever. So the boards of supervisors don't even have built in a managing company long term, even ten years, right? And there's no power companies on the hook for 'em. Nobody. So they just build them and they can leave them standing for time and alternative, ruin the lands, and then put a mini nuclear in, and then we're just stuck with all those. You know. So we you that's the saddest part.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Well, I would say to you, you know, you you talked a little earlier about the signature gathering, you know, for your listeners out there, the more signatures that you guys can gather. I think your deadline is what, July fifteenth?

SPEAKER_03 21:47

That's how you exact I think it's July eighth. And so it's very tight. And because the county in most counties it's ten percent, but because the county is, you know, uh that railing and stuff, they were really kinda they just immediately notified no. We require fifteen percent, so it sounds like we have to g do do the seven thousand, which is such a hard toe in two and a half weeks, you know. I mean that we had originally. So I don't know how that's gonna go. Uh but there's other things too. You know, we've we've been uh everybody's been trying to see if there's any way we can, you know, uh do anything else legally if we could find an attorney that would work for because you know, no b that's the other thing too. These big giant projects kind of prey on in areas and uh for on people that have no money to fight them legally. So it you know, because you can get an injunction, but can we afford to get an injunction? You know what I mean? That's that's the scary thing. We're trying we're try we're trying to think of all these things, a lot of people are, but we're kind of stuck right now. Over in New Mexico, they had uh Val Kilmer and he took the lead and he paid for it and they won. You know? But we we need a Val Kilmer here.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Yeah, well, the Association of Realtors is trying to do everything that we can to help, and you know, we're willing to have our office act as a uh uh a petition signing location. So if there are those out there interested in signing the petition, please swing by the board office. We'll gladly accept your signature to try and help get things done. And frankly, if if you miss the if you miss the deadline this time, you know, I would encourage everybody to continue pushing for a November, you know, to try and get this on the ballot in November as well.

SPEAKER_03 23:22

I mean, yeah, whatever we can do, yes. Injunctions, recalls, whatever we're gonna they they're gonna start doing. And we so appreciate you guys taking the lead on this. I think the White Mountain Association of Realtors, you guys and your letter, I encourage you guys to go to their website and uh read the letter that they sent. It was incredible. You guys did a nice job on that.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Thank you, Janine. And just for your listeners' uh information, those petitions are available at um the White Mountain Association and Realtors' office on K Street in Lakeside, uh Realty Executive's office in Pine Top, Kenny Properties office over in Showo, and uh Brenda's office at Ponderosa, White Mountain Realty in Springerville.

SPEAKER_03 24:05

Okay, well, you guys are wonderful. Thank you so much for doing all you can do and all you and if anybody has any questions, you know, I would suggest asking them. And also I encourage everybody to continue to have dialogue, write to the Board of Supervisors, every member of the Board of Supervisors, and tell them, guys, what's going on? Just tell us, be transparent. I know they put up more information on their website, on the Navajo County website, but it's the same stuff they've been telling us. I called it the no authority tour. Uh they keep saying, Oh, we have no authority, we have no authority. But seven other counties had authority. You know what I mean? Yeah. So they throw their hands in the air. We can't do anything. Sorry, I'm making fun. Sorry. Okay, guys, anything else you want to add?

SPEAKER_02 24:49

I think we just need to keep educating our our people in Apache County and in Navajo County. We need to help them get the information. The more they know, the more they'll stand up and and have their voice heard.

SPEAKER_03 25:02

Very good point, Brenda. Exactly. Guys, thank you so much. So appreciate you. And um again, guys, keep it right here. ITAC 1067 FM, the voice of the mountain. And also you can uh look this up and look this information up on our podcast. You can listen to this show as well. Okay, guys, thank you so much for calling in. I appreciate you. And if you have anything else, don't hesitate. This is called The Voice of the Mountain. It's your voice, okay?

SPEAKER_01 25:27

Thank you, Janine.

SPEAKER_03 25:28

Thank you so much. Brenda, Jack, and Brian. Thank you, thank you. You guys have a great evening. Okay, everybody, keep it right here. iTalk, 1067 FM, the voice of the mountain.